The Timing of the Rapture
The timing of the Rapture is often presumed to be a pre-tribulation occurrance, of which we shall test with the scriptures. First let's take the Apostle Paul's warning to heart and attempt to keep it simple. We must follow the Word of God rather than tradition, and put all the pieces of this puzzle together, precept upon precept, scripture upon scripture, a verse here, and a verse there, according to Isaiah 28:9-13. Don't just tell us about the Rapture in I Thessalonians and mention Matthew chapter 24 and a few other verses and think your coming to a conclusive argument. Sorry, nice try. What does Joel, Isaiah, Zechariah and Daniel have to say? What does Mark, Luke and John have to say about that Matthew 24 verse? What does Deuteronomy have to say about tribulation and the latter days? Does Malachi, Zephaniah, and Ezekiel have anything to say? How about I Corinthians 15:51-52? Is there not a trump in there and some kind of "mystery" that Revelation 10:7 talks about. Are you getting the point?
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together
unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter
as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall
not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God
sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God"
II Thessalonians 2:1-4 KJV
Paul clearly warns us first, LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU! He tells us that the Rapture cannot come, that day, the Day of Christ, UNTIL there is a falling away first, AND that man of sin, the antichrist, is revealed. Verse 4 shows us when he is revealed, at the point when he sets himself up in the Temple of God as being God himself, claiming to be God, which is in the middle of the seven year prophesied "one week" from the book of Daniel.
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week
he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of
abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and
that determined shall be poured upon the desolate".
Daniel 9:27 KJV
The scriptures are clear, in the midst, or in the middle of the seven year tribulation period the antichrist will set himself up in the Temple of God showing himself to be God, and at that point the rapture can take place. The Apostle Paul verifies again the timing as follows...
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be
changed".
I Corinthians 15:52 KJV
There is no wiggle room by using a "private interpration" of scripture to claim "the last trump" is none other than the last trumpet in the sequence of trumpets in Revelation, unless we violate all the other scriptures, precept upon precept, line upon line, on this teaching. (see knowing this first). See below an example of ignoring the last trump of Rev 10:7 with comments that the last trump is before the tribulation period. We asked our friend exactly where in scripture this last trump is located. His response did not locate the "last trump" prior to the 7 year tribulation, nor has any minsiter been able in the last 30 years on this question. Read our response below at end of this page. (see Greek word for "last" in I Cor 15:52 below).
The "last trump" Paul is referring to is the 7th Trump that shall sound in Revelation 10:7 when the "mystery of God" shall be finished which will end the Church age as we know it, when Christ takes his bride out of this world. The word "last" means last in a series and/or sequence of events, (see Greek definition above). Our friend using Joel 2:1 and Isaiah 61:2 have nothing to do with Paul's warning that two things must first occur before the Rapture, which is a stretch of the imagination. Remember, Paul started out with "let no man deceive you". With that said, these are not matters of salvation, however many preachers will lose credibility and have issues after telling God's people they will escape these things, only to find out they are going to experience some of the tribulation. Some may even lose faith due to this type of preaching. Our friend says the last trump is before the tribulation, but where in scripture exactly? Surly such an important "last trump" would be in the scripture if not in Rev 10:7?
To claim or confuse this last trump in Revelation 10:7 with any trumpets in Matthew 24 or the Gospel's denies the two separate events of the Rapture and the actual second coming of Christ. Christ comes back first for his saints, (in the rapture) and then 3 1/2 years later, comes back with his saints. This is part of the "mystery" as Paul describes it, the mystery of Christ and His Church.
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for
the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and
we shall be changed".
I Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV
"This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church".
Ephesians 5:32 KJV
"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin
to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared
to his servants the prophets".
Revelation 10:7 KJV
Being that the Church is not raptured until Revelation 10:7, many preachers will make attempts to claim that this is not the last trump Paul was referring to, as to try to justify the "traditional" teaching. Are we going to believe man, or the scriptures? Think how hard it will be for preachers and teachers to humble themselves and admit they were in error on this tradition after all these years of holding to it.
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,
after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not
after Christ".
Colossians 2:8 KJV
The end time vision of Habakkuk 2:1-4 is often used by many to expound what God plans on doing in our endtime. But the verse often missed is verse 4.
"Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just
shall live by his faith".
Habakkuk 2:4 KJV
We ourselves were taught a pre-tribulation rapture and preached this belief for years until we took all the other scriptures and put them together as pieces of a puzzle. The key for us was humility and faith, as Habakkuk joins these qualities together in understanding the end time vision. We understand it will be difficult for many ministers to bite the bullet once they realize they are not being honest with themselves and have to admit to their congregation that they were wrong. But in the long run, they will be respected more for their honesty, humility, and faith.
Dave MacPherson's book explores the origin of the pre-tribulational rapture with historical facts of the how and when this doctrine became popular. Although we do not believe this author on all his eschatological views, we have verified the historical accounts of this being a more modern doctrine starting in the 1830's. It seems a lot of spirits were running around in those days, for in 1830 along with Margaret MacDonald's visions, Joseph Smith and the book of Mormon was also published. We believe perhaps Edward Irving, the founder of the Roman Catholic Apostolic Church may have been the culprit and used and/or twisted Margaret MacDonalds views. Either way, only scripture is used as our final authority of all matters in faith and practice.
"The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word,
let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD".
Jeremiah 23:28 KJV
Here is our response to our friends explanation of the "last trump" being prior to the seven year tribulation period. We hope this helps your understanding.
Dear Doug,
I read your literature on the last trump and agree with most of what you said. We both agree that I Thessalonians 4:16 and I Corinthians 15:52 refers to the last trump. We also agree that the last trump is not the Second Advent trump of Matthew 24:31, which is different, for it is the great trumpet where all the earth shall see and mourn the son of man coming in the clouds and Christ returns to the Mount of Olives. Matthew 24:29-31, Zechariah 14:1-5; 12:9-14; 13:1-9. Many teachers, although correct in exposing a pre-tribulation rapture, erroneously teach that Matthew 24:29-31 is the rapture, of which it clearly is not, if we compare precept upon precept, as Isaiah 28:9-13 teaches us. The "day of Christ" (rapture) and the "day of the Lord" are 3 1/2 years apart. One event is meeting Christ "in the air" and "in the clouds" (I Thess 4:16-17), the other is the actual physical return of Jesus Christ to this earth with his saints. 3 1/2 years into the tribulation Christ comes for his saints, and 3 1/2 years later he comes back with his saints. Jude 14-15, Daniel 7:13-14. Compare Matthew 24:29-31 with Isaiah 13:6-13 and Joel 3:11-17 also.
Your clarification of Trump, Trumpets and Trumpeters is well written (though the relevance of specific timing lacks to identify the last trump). And we both agree that God has not appointed us to suffer the wrath of God, (I Thess 5:9), but God's Wrath does not start until Revelation chapter 16 with the 7 vials, although there are many parenthesis chapters in Revelation referencing God's Wrath as a look ahead, pointing to it. The book of Revelation (every chapter) is not in perfect chronological order. At times it looks ahead, other times, it refers and looks back, but the seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven vials are in order. Ex: after the rapture of the "last trump" in revelation 10:7 and 11:15, chapter 12:5 describes the Bride of Christ being "caught up unto God" and ruling with Christ for a 1000 years with a rod of iron. This is both a look back at chapters 10 and 11 when the "man child" was raptured in chapters 10 and 11, and also a look forward to chapters 19-21, when the Bride of Christ actually rules and reigns with Christ for a 1000 years, when it actually happens. Reference Revelation 2:26-28 and Revelation 20:4-6. If one understands this key, or flow of the book of Revelation, that it is generally in an order, (Rev 1:19), but also looks ahead and back with parenthesis chapters, your understanding of prophecy will increase ten fold. AND to understand that the book of Revelation, the Rapture, and the 2nd coming of Christ cannot be understood without CROSS REFERENCING the books of Daniel, Zechariah, Joel, Isaiah, and many other books, precept upon precept, (Isaiah 28:9-13), thus rightfully dividing the word of truth (II Tim 2:15).
First, let me clarify. We hold a mid-tribulation view, not a post-tribulation view, so we agree more than we disagree. Our view is only held by 8% of the Church, whereas the remaining 92% are split between pre-tribulation and post-tribulation.
I believe your view is mostly correct except with the clarification of Paul’s revelation in II Thessalonians 2:1-4. In verse 3 Paul tells us the Rapture cannot take place until two events take place,
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A falling away first
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And that man of sin be revealed
We can easily get off the tracks with trumps, trumpets, and explaining different events at different times relating to other trumpets, but the fact remains that our day of Christ, our gathering together unto him, (Verses 1-2) cannot occur until that man of sin is revealed. II Thessalonians 2:4 and Daniel 9:27 tell us when he is revealed, “in the midst of the week”, in the middle of the 7 year week, (Dan 9:27) when he “sets himself up in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God” II Thessalonians 2:4. The difference between our position is that the mid-tribulation view identifies the “last trump” in scripture whereas yours does not. You stated, “The Bible places the Last Trump (gathering trumpet) of the Church Age prior to any of the alarm trumpets in Rev. (Joel 2:1)”. Can you locate in scripture where this last trump is? Trumpets of warning, alerting, gathering and explaining them as you did in Joel, Luke and Isaiah are fine, but these references lack any relevance to any specific timing. Our view locates it in Revelation 10:7 when “the mystery of God should be finished”. I noticed in your 4 pages that you did not mention the correlation of this mystery in Revelation 10:7 with Paul’s “I shew you a mystery” (I Cor 15:51) and the mystery of the Church Age as Paul revealed, “This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church” in Ephesians 5:32. Also the trumpet in Revelation 10:7 is in fact the seventh trumpet which would make it the “last trump” of a sequence of trumpets. Your last trump lacks any other specific trumpets of sequence in scripture. Nowhere else in scripture can such a sequence be found other than in the book of Revelation. The word last means last in a series of places, time or succession, even as the Greek word “eschatos” declares. A pre-tribulation view has serious holes in it, for it simply cannot be located in scripture as to where these series of trumpets in time are located, whereas our view locates them. We also believe the two prophets of Revelation 11:12 coincide with this last trump for they hear a voice, “come up hither” and they ascended up to heaven “in a cloud” along with the saints being “caught up together with them in the clouds” I Thessalonians 4:17.
But back to II Thessalonians 2:1-4. Verse 3, “let no man deceive you”. We were both taught this in bible school or from our Pastor(s) or Church(s). They likewise were also taught this. Just because this is our traditional teaching, does not necessarily make it the correct teaching (Colossians 2:8).
Also you mentioned I Thessalonians 5:9, in that the Church is not appointed unto wrath, yes, in this we agree 100%. What I think you miss is that the first 3 ½ years of the tribulation are God’s Judgments with his seven seals and seven trumpets. His wrath is the last 3 ½ years of the tribulation, which does not begin until Revelation 16:1 with the seven vials “of the wrath of God” upon the earth. So that verse you used to show a pre-tribulation view, shows our view just the same, in a promise of escaping the last 3 ½ years, but not the first. And yes we both know there are (parentheses) chapters in Revelation taking us forward and backwards in time, but the seven vials do come last, after the 7 seals and 7 trumpets, then lastly we have the 7 vials which start in Revelation chapter 16.
Jesus said “watch ye therefore for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning” Mark 13:35 KJV. Sounds like before, in the middle, or after, does it not? Actually we believe it is, and here it is.
“And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him”.
Matthew 25:6 KJV
The Greek word for “midnight” here is “mesos” (Strong’s G3319) along with (Strong’s 3571) “nyx” detailing in the middle of that night (the 7 years) a time of sin, shame, moral stupidity and darkness, which we believe Jesus is revealing the “Bridegroom cometh” in the middle of that 7 year night (John 9:4) to come.
As far as wresting the scriptures or twisting the scriptures, you and I both know that this is not a salvation issue and we both have good reasons to believe what we believe. The twisting of the scriptures goes to those who actually mess with the “scriptures” themselves and “corrupt the word of God” the written scriptures. (II Corinthians 2:17). I myself am careful not to place pre-tribulation preachers such as yourself into a “cult” category or use scriptures of “destruction” upon them for being misled on eschatology. I would suggest you do the same. Those who pervert God’s Word itself is another story reserved for scholars and textual critics who hide their own titles in Malachi 2:12 (except for the KJV). Yes, there are others who do teach false doctrine leading to “destruction”. I see your teaching as false doctrine, but am careful to claim it is a salvation issue. I do categorize it as a “false hope” which may cause some to stumble and a lot of ministers will have to eat humble pie the day after Russia invades Israel of which begins the 7 year tribulation. (Ezekiel 39:9, Habakkuk 2:2-4).
I honestly asked God if I was wrong to show me the truth right before I read your 4 pages. Even after 30 years of study and being solid in my position, I am always open to correction. Doug, can you do the same? (Habakkuk 2:4).
Doug, in my debates over the years and even with my professors in bible college (Assembly of God) in the early 80’s I simply asked the same question I asked you, of which I have never got any response. Where is something as important as the “last trump” which ends the Church Age, where is this location in scripture? We can point to it in Revelation, whereas you have a “last trump” that can occur at any moment, that does not exist in any specific passages, but only in the foundations of the traditions and teachings of men. To response with trumpets in Joel, Isaiah, Matthew, Numbers, or anywhere but a specific reference to the exact “last trump”, is a stretch that is likened to a train wreck going off the tracks. Whether they are trumpets of alerting, warning, gathering and having verses to show distinction of trumpets is all fine and dandy, but it is not answering to locating the specific “last trump” in scripture. It sounds good, looks good, but still lacks biblical evidence as to the “where is it”? It sounds like the tenants of faith in most churches, “we believe the inerrant scriptures of the original languages” but the originals don’t exist, so sorry folks, you cannot go buy a perfect bible anywhere today. It’s close, but no cigar. Your “last trump” prior to the 7 year tribulation, sorry to say, does not exist. But the “last trump” in the middle of the 7 year tribulation does exist, and coincides with the timing of Paul’s revelation in II Thessalonians 2:1-4. A Pre-trib rapture has no scriptural grounds, whereas a mid-tribulation rapture does. "...let God be true, but every man a liar"... Romans 3:4 KJV
Let’s look at it logically. If the “last trump” is before the 7 year tribulation, then what trumpet is before it? How many trumpets are there pre-tribulation? If Jesus can come today, are there trumpets blowing now? How many are blowing and how many more before the last trump? And where exactly are they located in scripture? How many trumpets precede the last trump? One? Three? Perhaps another seven as in Revelation? Your last trump that can occur today is a fable Doug. It’s a figment of man’s imagination and tradition of men (Colossians 2:8). Back to the original question and it’s for all pre-tribulation teachers. Where exactly in scripture is the “last trump” located before the seven year tribulation period? Show us and we will believe it.
Anyhow, thank you for a lively debate. I hope your open as I was 30 years ago, for I once believed as you do and could not escape the biblical evidence. And remember, it’s not a salvation issue, we are brothers in Christ.
Yours in Christ,
Brother Michael George
Below, we clarify a few things on this interview with the late Dave Hunt in clarifying the difference between "the day of Christ" and "the day of the Lord" and how "the last trump" plays into it all. Brother Dave, (rest his soul) did not address this "last trump".
Our Response:
It's not the "day of the Lord" in II Thessalonians 2:1-4, it's the "day of Christ" as the KJV reveals. You seriously think you’re going to understand bible prophecy without the Authorized King James version? The day of Christ, the Rapture, occurs "at the last trump" (I Cor 15:51-52) of which happens in Revelation 10:7; 11:15; and Rev 12:1-5, the only place in the book of Revelation where there are a sequence of trumpets to qualify as the last trump. The "great trump" of Matthew 24:31 is the second coming, 3 1/2 years later, as lined up with "the day of the Lord" in Isaiah 27:12-13 (the same great trump); Zechariah 14:1-5, and Joel chapter 2, the trumpet signaling the "day of the Lord". If you had a King James version you would be able to clarify the difference between "the day of Christ", (Rapture), and the "day of the Lord" which happens 3 1/2 years after the rapture.
Thus the "revealing" of Thessalonians 2:1-8, even if brother Dave Hunt was correct in the "he" being the church or the Holy Spirit, II Thessalonians 2:4 tells us when the man of sin is revealed! It is when he sets himself up in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 12:11 are clear in that all the "revealing" is in the "midst" or the middle of the 7 year tribulation period, (one week), 3 1/2 years into the tribulation period. II Thessalonians 2:1-4 is clear in that the rapture cannot take place until there is a falling away first, AND the man of sin be revealed which happens in the middle of the 7 year tribulation period.
This all lines up with a mid-tribulation rapture of which "the last trump" occurs midway through the book of Revelation in chapters 10, 11, and 12. And don't try to equate Paul's revelation of "the last trump" with other trumpets in the Old Testament of feasts, holy days, festivals, and trumpets of warnings, or in Moses day, it just does not cut the cake. For if that was true, then where exactly in the book of Revelation is this "last trump"? Well, we have just showed you.
You cannot fabricate any other trump, other than "the last trump' in Revelation 10:7, of which BTW, "the mystery of God" should be finished, you know, where Paul says, "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep..." I Cor 15:51, and in Ephesians 5:32 where Paul says, "This is a great mystery; but I speak concerning Christ and the Church". It's not rocket science folks, if scripture is taken "precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little and there a little" as Isaiah 29:9-13 instructs.
PLEASE WATCH OUR VIDEO BELOW ON EXPLAINING HOW MATTHEW 24:29-31 IS NOT THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH!
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Below is a debate (screen sho between the late Dave Hunt (pre-trib) and Marvin Rosenthal (pre-wrath) and for 1 1/2 hours, there is not a single mention of the "last trump" in I Corinthians 15:51-52, and not a mention of II Thessalonians 2:1-4 about the "day of Christ", which is a revealing as to when the rapture can take place. Both are incorrect, and presented weak arguments, both getting hung up on knowing the day or the hour, bringing up points about whether people will be ready, analyzing the days of Noah and consistently getting off the train tracks as to the actual timing of this great event. Very poor presentations lacking any relevance as to pinpointing any scriptural references to the rapture.
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Another aspect that most teaches miss when it comes to the timing of the Rapture is the prophecy that Restoration, Revival, the latter Rain, and Elijah must FIRST COME before the rapture can take place! Watch below.....